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Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:18 am
by CAPFlyer
Krazycolin wrote:anybody got good plans or layouts for this bird?
I'm looking at the PACER CRAG pit and it looks like those doodads on the center console are CDU's and not FMS'...
anyone?
The PACER CRAG upgrade equipped the aircraft with 3 Rockwell Collins FMS-800 systems. The FMS-800 is a military-specific variant of the commercially available FMS-3000, which is one of the most popular FMS systems in use today.
Wish I could help directly with plans, however I would suggest contacting the Smithsonian institution, the US Air Force Museum, and Boeing OC-ALC (Oklahoma City - Air Logistics Center) PAO to see if they can help. I've had good luck with them in the past. As long as you're only looking for external stuff, they're usually pretty helpful. Only when you want to see the inside do they tend to get a bit reticent to help.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:35 pm
by N4GIX
The one thing that struck me from this article is the amazing safety record of this aircraft! Only
five fatal accidents in over 40 years? That is remarkable!
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:09 pm
by Bone
N4GIX wrote:
The one thing that struck me from this article is the amazing safety record of this aircraft! Only
five fatal accidents in over 40 years? That is remarkable!
They may be off a bit in their statics, Bill. I remember five 135 crashes that they don't mention, they were in the 1980's.
1. A 135 with a number of retired/dependent passengers travelling space-available crashed on take off from Dyess AFB.
2. A Maine ANG tanker blew up over Maine when they accidently left fuel pumps running in a fuel tank that no longer had gas in it. The pumps overheated and ignited the fumes.
3. A training flight with a number of instructors and students aboard crashed onto the runway at Castle AFB. I believe they stalled it during a missed approach.
4. A 135 at Fairchild AFB was chasing a B-52 while practicing the "Thunder Buff" show, and crashed 200 yards from the tanker squadron building when they had multiple flame-outs after running into the B-52 jet wash.
5. A tanker crashed when the aircraft commander allowed both his wife and the co-pilot's wife to sit in the seats during flight so they could have their pics taken together. The wives were onboard travelling space-available. It was a good gig for tanker pilots taking their wives with them, until this crash.
All perished in these crashes. I am willing to wager that there are more 135 crashes.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:07 pm
by Backy
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:15 pm
by Krazycolin
CAPFlyer wrote:Krazycolin wrote:anybody got good plans or layouts for this bird?
I'm looking at the PACER CRAG pit and it looks like those doodads on the center console are CDU's and not FMS'...
anyone?
The PACER CRAG upgrade equipped the aircraft with 3 Rockwell Collins FMS-800 systems. The FMS-800 is a military-specific variant of the commercially available FMS-3000, which is one of the most popular FMS systems in use today.
Wish I could help directly with plans, however I would suggest contacting the Smithsonian institution, the US Air Force Museum, and Boeing OC-ALC (Oklahoma City - Air Logistics Center) PAO to see if they can help. I've had good luck with them in the past. As long as you're only looking for external stuff, they're usually pretty helpful. Only when you want to see the inside do they tend to get a bit reticent to help.
It's a bit strange cause the manuals (i have the E, R and T)... they ALL have the electronic HSI and ADI... but only the T has the FMS'.
So... it seems to me that we can do glass for those and do the rest in steam...
What say you all?
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:20 pm
by Krazycolin
uh... yah... none of those links are leading to good plans...
but thanks.
I think, if we do this... we will have to do it by pics...
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:28 pm
by Bone
Krazycolin wrote:
So... it seems to me that we can do glass for those and do the rest in steam...
What say you all?
Definately. You can do an A model, also, right? Just take the big hoovers off of the R/T and put on four straight pipes.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:07 pm
by Krazycolin
i actually like the big ones...
And I can't find a manual for an A.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:14 pm
by wiltzei
A tenner? Much more charismatic, and no-one is yet to produce a spiffing civvy variant.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:23 pm
by firebird33
wiltzei wrote:A tenner? Much more charismatic, and no-one is yet to produce a spiffing civvy variant.
CLS did a while ago. It's actually really nice.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:35 pm
by Backy
Bone wrote:N4GIX wrote:
The one thing that struck me from this article is the amazing safety record of this aircraft! Only
five fatal accidents in over 40 years? That is remarkable!
They may be off a bit in their statics, Bill. I remember five 135 crashes that they don't mention, they were in the 1980's.
1. A 135 with a number of retired/dependent passengers travelling space-available crashed on take off from Dyess AFB.
2. A Maine ANG tanker blew up over Maine when they accidently left fuel pumps running in a fuel tank that no longer had gas in it. The pumps overheated and ignited the fumes.
3. A training flight with a number of instructors and students aboard crashed onto the runway at Castle AFB. I believe they stalled it during a missed approach.
4. A 135 at Fairchild AFB was chasing a B-52 while practicing the "Thunder Buff" show, and crashed 200 yards from the tanker squadron building when they had multiple flame-outs after running into the B-52 jet wash.
5. A tanker crashed when the aircraft commander allowed both his wife and the co-pilot's wife to sit in the seats during flight so they could have their pics taken together. The wives were onboard travelling space-available. It was a good gig for tanker pilots taking their wives with them, until this crash.
All perished in these crashes. I am willing to wager that there are more 135 crashes.
The numbers are in error, but the 135 plus her numerous variants have an outstanding safety record.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:45 pm
by Backy
Krazycolin wrote:CAPFlyer wrote:Krazycolin wrote:anybody got good plans or layouts for this bird?
I'm looking at the PACER CRAG pit and it looks like those doodads on the center console are CDU's and not FMS'...
anyone?
The PACER CRAG upgrade equipped the aircraft with 3 Rockwell Collins FMS-800 systems. The FMS-800 is a military-specific variant of the commercially available FMS-3000, which is one of the most popular FMS systems in use today.
Wish I could help directly with plans, however I would suggest contacting the Smithsonian institution, the US Air Force Museum, and Boeing OC-ALC (Oklahoma City - Air Logistics Center) PAO to see if they can help. I've had good luck with them in the past. As long as you're only looking for external stuff, they're usually pretty helpful. Only when you want to see the inside do they tend to get a bit reticent to help.
It's a bit strange cause the manuals (i have the E, R and T)... they ALL have the electronic HSI and ADI... but only the T has the FMS'.
You don't have T.O. 1C-135(K)R(I)-1 with TCTO 1433 do you Colin?
I assure you the PACER CRAG R-model has a FMS. I didn't fat finger a damn thing into the FMS. We did data transfer to the FMS via a PC card. You most likely have a pre- PACER CRAG Dash-1. Since you have the analog Dash-1, make sure you put the sextant in there so I can shoot night cel ... that should bring back the memories for Ken! LOL
So... it seems to me that we can do glass for those and do the rest in steam...
What say you all?
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:59 pm
by Bone
Backy wrote:
The numbers are in error, but the 135 plus her numerous variants have an outstanding safety record.
It does have a an awesome safety record, no question.
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:13 am
by Krazycolin
I need to think about this...
Re: next big plane...
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:19 am
by CAPFlyer
Krazycolin wrote:It's a bit strange cause the manuals (i have the E, R and T)... they ALL have the electronic HSI and ADI... but only the T has the FMS'.
So... it seems to me that we can do glass for those and do the rest in steam...
What say you all?
Depends on when the manuals were written.
The A,B,C,D, and E models of the C-135 were steam gauge. Some of the (K)C-135E models have received a partial Pacer CRAG upgrade (Pacer CRAG Block 20), but not all. The KC-135R/T models have all received Pacer CRAG Block 30 + GATM. Now, when we start getting into the Recce and ELINT versions (RC-135 and EC-135) then it's an even more interesting mix, but most of the active special mission aircraft have received full Pacer CRAG Block 30 + GATM regardless of if they have the TF33 or F100.
Basically, there are so many C-135 variants that it's hard to make it hard and fast which one has what, but in basic terms, the KC-135A (B,C,and D were all "special mission" aircraft or cargo haulers) has steam gauges and J47 turbojet engines. The KC-135E has TF33 (with thrust reversers) and originally had steam gauge and were updated with Pacer CRAG Block 10 and the Block 20, but few have received Block 30 until after being converted to KC-135Rs. The KC-135R/T (the "T" model are ex-KC-135Q's that were used for the SR-71 program or ex-RC-135s demodified to tankers and were equipped for inflight refueling) has the F100 (CFM-56) and were originally steam (just like they were when they were KC-135A's or E's) and have since received all 3 blocks of Pacer CRAG and the GATM.